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Tips on tips & dehorning irons

5/30/2013

21 Comments

 
With all the chat about de-budding, there are questions about the
different irons and tips available. Who among us has not heard about the Rhinehart when we first started  learning about de-budding.  So, what types of irons are there and what is the difference between them?  Which tips should be used for our
Kinders? What is the difference between a Rhinehart X30 or Rhinehart  X50A?

Irons.........

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Electric Calf Dehorning Iron. 
This iron has the appearance of a heating element.  The center diameter is an inch.  This iron heats up quickly, taking about 10 minutes.  Because there is an open area at the bottom of the coil, the iron has to be turned to complete coverage.  This tip has been used on a two week old Kinder buck, who  ended up (after two more de-buddings) to have surgery to remove the horns that grew.  This iron is TOO BIG for Kinder bucklings.  The burn area is very large and extremely uncomfortable for a young one. The recovery time is weeks due to the severity of the burn, etc.

Picture
(right): 1/2" small/regular goat tip (left): 1" using Calf Dehorning coil
Picture
(right): 1/2" small/regular goat tip (left): buck tip
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Non-Electric Iron. This iron must be heated by a separate heat source, such as a butane torch or fire.  Due to the external heat source, care must be taken to ensure the iron is hot enough with
each use.  The iron averages 12" long.  Can be easily made by any
handy person.  Tips on the commercial models being sold run about 3/4" in diameter and cost around  $20.  Care must be taken to assure that the iron is hot enough for the de-budding.  Tips with openings 3/4" may be too large for Kinder bucklings.  We know of one herd owner that is very happy with their non-electric iron. 

PictureRhinehart X30 with tip
Rhinehart X30 dehorner. 
More affordable than the Rhinehart X50 (average cost $75), this iron comes with a permanently attached tip. 
You can order it with your choice of a 1/4" or 3/8" tip through the manufacturer or 1/4" or 1/2" tip permanently attached through Hoegger.  This iron has a 200 watt element and
maintains a steady 900-950 degree temperatures. Care must be taken that the tip is hot enough to 'do the job'.  Manufacturer strongly recommends never using the iron for more than 5 seconds at a time when de-budding.  This is why many use the iron twice on each side to maximize the de-budding and avoid severe injury to their animals.

PictureRhinehart X50A without a tip
Rhinehart X50A Dehorner. Around $20 more expensive than the
Rhinehart X30, this iron was made for multiple de-budding jobs. 
Capable of higher heat up to 1000 degrees, this 239 watt iron  automatically reheats when the temperature reaches 800 degrees. 
The advantage of this iron is that the tips are not permanently
attached.  Any tip can be used with this iron, from the 1/4" to 3/4" tip.  It can even be used without a tip, providing a large enough copper end to dehorn calves.  Manufacturer strongly recommends never using the iron for more than 5 seconds at a time when
de-budding.  Our experience, we do two burnings per horn bud, keeping a timer to assure you don't go over the 5 second time limit.  Using this method, you burn one side 5 seconds, repeat on the other side.  Go back and repeat the process for an additional 3-5 seconds.  Let the weight of the iron do its job, rock the iron around the horn bud  for an even burn. 

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Portable Butane Disbudding Iron.  These irons are convenient, allowing de-budding to be done at any
location. Pre-Heating usually takes about 4 minutes. Some models have adjustable temperatures up to 1100 degrees.

Tips

You've probably heard about the different tip sizes, but really, what tip should you use?  Let's talk about sizes, because with Kinders sizes due matter!

1/4" Pygmy/Nigerian Tip.  This is a very small tip.  We personally don't have any experience with it, but can tell you that on most mini-goat sites, NO ONE  likes this tip.  Pygmy owners that we have talked to would never recommend or use this small tip.

1/2" Small/Regular Goat Tip.  That's exactly what it is, a goat tip.  We have used this tip many times.  With does, we have had very good  luck.  With bucks, well not so lucky.  Again, timing is
everything!  If you wait too long to do a de-budding, then be prepared to re-do your de-buddings. The older and bigger your goats get, the more uncomfortable it is for them and the harder it is to successfully do a de-budding.  
Picture1/2" small/reg tip vs. buck tip
Buck Tip. 1 1/4" long, tear drop shaped, with a 1/2" wide opening.  The Buck Tip is designed to manage the larger horn bases all bucks have.  Our personal experience with this is: Use only on larger bucks that need a second de-budding.  Place the
wider base right in front of the horn bud with the narrow tip facing towards the tail.  Use the same 5 second rule provided by the manufacturer on the Rhinehart models.

A goat is a goat, right?

A goat may be a goat, but like humans, they are as different as you and I.  Use common sense when de-budding.  Consider not only the age of your animal, but their individual size. What iron are you using?  Is the tip too big or not big enough?  Most recommend you burn to achieve that 'copper ring' everyone talks about.  We have gotten the 'copper ring' with 3 seconds, and again with 5 seconds.  We have had the 'cap' pop off immediately after de-budding and STILL had to re-do de-buddings.  3 seconds is not enough, nor was 5 seconds for us.  So seeing the magic 'copper ring' may not be enough.  Try to aim for a total of 8-10 seconds.  Start with the first 5 seconds, then when going back, re-do it for 3-5 seconds.  If there is a lot of bleeding at the horn bud, use the tip of the iron to burn it - this cauterizes the horn bud.

What works for us, we de-bud as early as we can.  We have procrastinated and had to re-do later on and more than once to our dismay. Best time? Around 5-7 days old for Kinder bucklings; 5--14 days for Kinder doelings.  Don't wait to do everyone at one time, it is stressful no matter how well prepared you are, and often ends in scurs.  

Which iron is the right one?  All are, depending on circumstances. 
If your de-budding goats, than use the Rhinehart models X30 or X50A; if you don't have electricity, then by all means use the portable Butane or non-electric iron.  Don't use the coil type electric Calf Dehorner for goats - it is TOO BIG and causes far too much discomfort and lengthy healing time, as well as almost guaranteeing future horn growth or scurs.

Which tip is the best? Again, consider what you are doing. If you are de-budding goats, Kinder goats in particular, use the 1/2" small/regular tip.  The 1/4" tip is too small and even Pygmy owners don't like the Pygmy/Nigerian tip. 
 
How about the Buck tip? We still have ours and will use it on
larger bucks needing de-budding re-dos because it is designed to cover the larger horn bases that our bucks have, however, first time we will use the regular tip, every time.  

De-budding re-dos are not as uncommon as you think.   Understand that what works best at 1-2 weeks of age may not be enough when they are older. A small/regular 1/2" tip may not be big enough to do on a two month old kid needing a second de-budding. 

Ultimately, only you know what you need, what will work
best for you, and what money you are willing to spend. 
Do consider your animals, their size, their comfort, and their heal times after a de-budding.  Make the right choices for you, not necessarily what everyone else thinks.  Do your home work, don't be shy about calling the manufacturer to ask all those questions that seem to pop up when you're ready to de-bud.  Your animals depend on you to do your best, but remember your human as
well.  

Blessings
Brenda Lee
21 Comments
stevesmitty79
3/7/2014 01:32:52 pm

Thanks for providing an excellent and insightful article. We are expecting kids and being first-timers, your advise on the non-electric disbudding will prove invaluable since we are off-grid. I do plan on having a small wattage electric that our solar system can handle as an alternative, but our goal is the effective use of the manual disbudding iron. There is little information online about that. Thanks for the time you took to share your knowledge with us. Agape to you and yours.

Reply
Brenda Lee link
3/8/2014 12:16:43 am

Thank you so much for your comment. We have the habit of learning things the hard way......that's what led us to have this website. People need to find what works best for them, but how do you find what will work best? We try very hard to provide all the information we can to help others make informed decisions. We share what and why we do what we do, but our ways aren't necessarily the only way - so we include as much information as we can. Thank you again for your comment. If there is anything you would like to share or something for us to blog on don't hesitate to email us at: Kalispell_kinders@live.com
Blessings
Brenda Lee

Reply
Gay Lewis
4/22/2017 06:57:57 pm

Brenda-our vet debudded our Pygmy goat babies at 9 days old. Of the 12 babies, 3 babies developed huge swollen heads, eyes swollen shut. Gave them banamine--they became septic and died. In your opinion what would have caused this? Iron too hot? Too much pressure? So sad

Brenda Lee link
3/10/2014 06:36:56 am

We are very happy to say that a friend of ours will be contributing a blog about using a non-electric iron!!! She has been very happy using it, so who better to blog on the subject! So stay tuned.......
Blessings
Brenda Lee

Reply
Brenda Lee link
4/23/2017 09:14:14 am

To the Lewis family, we're so sorry for your loss, it's a very difficult thing to go through.....

Our first thought is not a hot iron, but the iron was on too long. You can also cause swelling if the iron is slightly off horn bud towards the eyes.

The buds, during the first four months, literally start growing and becoming attached to the skull. It’s why they recommend surgery, instead of de-budding after 4 months of age. We always use a very hot iron, it needs to be to do the job. However, with that comes risk. We never let the iron sit more than 5 seconds at any one time…we alternate between horn buds, going back for a second time.

The only time we had problems is when a vet held the tip on too long or the goat wasn’t restrained and the iron slipped. Read our very first blog we did for why we started de-budding ourselves, http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/apps/search?q=de-budding

So what do you do if you see swelling? Ice, ice, and ice some more….You need to reduce the swelling as fast as you can. Anti-inflammatory medicine is also needed. If there is eye swelling you’ll need drops as well. Keep their head elevated with pillows or something the first day, or longer, it will help with the pressure and discomfort.

Does our method guarantee hornless goats? No, with bucks we have scurs. But we can say we haven’t had any de-budding complications doing this job ourselves. We will say that we’ve had Debudding Re-do's at http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/blog/de-budding-re-doagain

We’ve learned more since these blogs and take our responsibility seriously, as do all of us that choose dehorning. We still choose to dehorn, but we are also willing to deal with the occasional scurs with the boys.

Again, we are so very sorry for your loss and sad that you had this terrible experience…

Blessings
Nick & Brenda Lee

Nyla
11/28/2014 09:41:45 am

We have a 6 week old Nigerian dwarf buck that has not been disbudded yet. We want to disbud him, but are not sure which tip to use first. After reading your post, it sounds like we should expect to re-do later on. I was thinking about using the buck tip for the first debudding. I don't think the 1/2" tip will fit down over his horn bud. It seems to already be about 3/4" at the base. What do you think? This our first time to do a debudding.

Reply
Brenda Lee
11/28/2014 11:53:02 am

Hello Nyla,

We'll be honest with you, though we choose to de-bud our kids, we would never try to debud a kid at 6 weeks of age for the first time. For a successful de-budding you need to get the bucks done at 5-7 days, does 5-14 days. At 6 weeks you missed a crucial window for a successful de-budding. Had you already done a earlier de-budding we would recommend a redo up to 4 months of age.

Let us explain why debudding now isn't a viable option regardless of which tip you would use. At 6 weeks the horn will be well over 1/2" tall. Though the regular 1/2" tip is 1" in depth, the horn base will be too large to accommodate it. Even though the buck tip is wider, it's depth is only 5/8". Both meaning that the tips won't get down far enough to do the job. There are other things to consider.

As the kid ages, their horns grow attached to their skull. Their sinuses eventually grow up into the base of the horn, as well as the horn has a major blood vessel. Lastly, as the kid grows, it becomes more uncomfortable for them when de-budding, because of the horns being attached to their skulls. It will be harder on you as well, because you'll have no choice but to do multiple de-buddings and most likely still have issues down the road.

Are there other options? Yes, but they can be expensive. You can have the horns surgically removed, but that requires a experienced vet. If done right it would be permanent solution. You could have the horns cut and cauterized, however, it would also take an experienced vet (because of how the horn grows) and would have to be redone from time to time.

Having said that, we have had horns surgically removed on a goat over 4 months of age and we will never do that again. We, personally would keep him horned at this point.

Blessings
Brenda Lee

Reply
Nyla
12/2/2014 07:42:14 am

Brenda,

Thank you so much for the advice. I wish we had been more prepared for this. Our buck was a little over 2 weeks old when we bought him and it took us too long to decide that we wanted him dehorned. We will most definintely keep him horned now. I have heard that the surgeries are tough. I really appreciate your thorough response.

Montana Herbalist
12/2/2014 07:43:49 am

Good luck & enjoy your new addition!

Reply
Brenda Harris
2/16/2016 06:14:09 am

I just purchased a rhinehart x30 with a 3/8 tip. I was wondering if this was big enough to do boer goats? I'm thinking I may need a 1/2.??? Anyone have a sugestion?

Reply
Brenda Lee link
2/16/2016 03:30:48 pm

Honestly, we know quite a few Boer breeders and none dehorn their Boer goats. This is due to the fact that many are sold strickly for meat and debudding isn't a consideration for them. Like Kinders, Boer's will have a wide horn base. We would recommend the 1/2" tip. It is what we use. We would also recommend you use a modified figure 8 pattern when debudding bucks or be prepared to do a second debudding. The key is when the debugging is done. The earlier the better.

Here are a couple of other blogs regarding our experiences.
http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/blog/de-budding-dos-and-donts
http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/blog/-why-de-budding
http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/blog/de-budding-re-doagain

Don't panic if you have to do a re-do, it's part of the learning process. Goats are extremely resilient animals and VERY forgiving of our learning curves.

Reply
Brenda Lee link
2/16/2016 03:34:40 pm

We did try to contact the Rhinehart Company directly at 260-238-4442. However, they were already closed for the day. I would recommend contacting them. Their support is awesome, they helped us when we purchased the 'buck tip' and had TONS of questions.

Reply
Martin
3/1/2016 11:37:44 am

Hey there, i want to start de-horning my goats, because of the inconvenient fighting between them...
I was wondering - i cant find HOW THICK the metal needs to be... if there is an 1/2'' diameter of the INSIDE, how thick should i make the tip ? and is it hollow or is it like a cone type ? should the inside of the metal TIP come in contact with the TIP of the horn ?

Reply
Brenda Lee link
3/1/2016 12:13:03 pm

It comes down to age, more than tip. To have the best chance at debudding and safest for the kids, debudding needs to be done around 7-10 days.

It sounds like your kids are a little older? If they already have horns, your chance of safely dehorning is difficult. First - they CAN'T be older than 16 weeks. If the horn is larger than 3/4" in length, than it will be very difficult to do, let alone difficult for the kids. It will also have to be done more than once. You can not dehorn any kid goat without surgery once they reach the age of 4 months.

What many people don't understand is that the goats horns become attached to the skulls and not only do they have a main artery going through their horns, their sinus' grow up into the horn base.

If the horn is less than 1/2" and the kids are around 2-4 weeks old, you probably still have a chance of doing it, but be prepared to do it again at the first sign of regrowth. Never hold the iron on their heads longer than recommended by the manufacturer of the tip. Rhinehart recommends only 5 seconds. You will need to no only burn the tip of the horn but the base as well. Understand that a buck's horn base is wider than a does. Restraining kids is paramount to keep them safe.

Tips are usually have a 1/16"-1/8" wall thickness.

Please read our other blogs on dehorning........
http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/blog/-why-de-budding
http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/blog/de-budding-dos-and-donts
http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/blog/de-budding-re-doagain

Hopefully we have answered your question.....Good Luck

Reply
Nathan
5/16/2016 08:12:16 pm

We acommlished a redo disbudding on a buckling at 1.5 months and it was oozing a dark mushy substance instead of being able to flick the skin cap off. What is that and how do you deal with it?

Reply
Kalispell Kinders
5/16/2016 08:25:50 pm

please send us a picture ASAP to Kalispell_kinders@live.com

Reply
Ricky Long
6/22/2018 06:57:49 am

So, I tried disbudding a two of my Nigerian bucks, the larger was 3wks old and is now 6 wks the other is now 5wks. I'm. afraid I did a very poor job and only seem to have slowed the horns growth down a bit. Do you think it would be safe to re-do them?

Reply
Brenda Lee link
6/24/2018 01:10:21 pm

http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/blog/de-budding-re-doagain

Reply
Brenda Lee link
6/24/2018 12:44:16 pm

Debudding is dangerous, there is only - as safely as you can. Now to answer your question. Timing is everything with bucklings. We've done bucklings at 10 days and needed to re-do a debudding. Bucks really need to be done earlier than you did, so understand, having to redo them is not surprising.

We also need you to understand that regardless, you may have scurs even if you do another debudding at this point.

The older they get the harder it is for them, so if you are going to redo them you will need to do it as soon as you can. We did some meat goats this year at 14 and 16 days, having to re-do them of course.

Re-doing debuddings are more difficult, and some can bleed quite a lot....so we use a second iron (Pygmy tip) to cauterize the spots we do. Watch for oozing, or wet, burn areas after you do re-do. You want the heads to look dry as they heal. If there is bleeding the next day, due to scratching their heads, just calmly clean them up and don't panic....just use alcohol on sterile pads to dab the areas to keep them clean. Don't overdue the cleaning or you can start them bleeding again.

What ever you decide, don't be to hard on yourself. After 12 years, we still have scurs on someone every other year.

Reply
Kat
5/9/2020 06:27:45 pm

Well written. One of the only places I could find any informative information on the buck attachment. Thank you.

Reply
Brenda Lee
5/10/2020 12:48:36 pm

Glad you found our blog useful....

Reply



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