OK, culling, it’s a topic many don’t want to talk about. Who can blame them, when you see those sweet littles being born the last thing you want to think about is culling them. We are probably going to offend some with our views, but as a breeder culling is the one MOST important decision we can make.
When you buy a registered goat, you don’t buy them to later cull them; you buy them with the hope of what you will get from your purchase. All those visions of the kids that will soon populate your farm, the milk and cheese you can make. Hey, who hasn’t wondered about making goat milk soap!
There are quite a few that also think about the meat aspect of their Kinders, understanding from the beginning that some will be meat goats. As many know, who have dreamed of their first Kinders, there can be quite an expense to getting your first herd or ‘starter kit’.
There is the actual cost of buying the goats, throw in the cost of importing them into your state (especially if you don’t have any in your state), finish that all off with whatever it costs you to actually get them home. Can some of us say ouch? But to most of us, actually having our Kinders is well worth the cost to get them. So having spent so much to get them and waiting ‘not’ so patiently for your first Kinder kids – the last thing you would think of is having to cull.
Honestly, for us it isn’t an easy decision to make, but it is an important one. Kinders are new to Montana. Yes, we’ve been here a while, actually for years, but the breed is still very new here. Boars and Kikos are all the rage here, so one of the worst things we could do as Kinder breeders is sell kids that will NOT help the Kinder breed become popular. There are also problems that can eventually happen because someone doesn’t cull an animal that they maybe should have.
Let’s talk about some problems that could happen, and honestly have happened because culls weren’t culled. We’ll also use our kid crop from this year to talk about culling and why some of us make that decision.
When you buy a registered goat, you don’t buy them to later cull them; you buy them with the hope of what you will get from your purchase. All those visions of the kids that will soon populate your farm, the milk and cheese you can make. Hey, who hasn’t wondered about making goat milk soap!
There are quite a few that also think about the meat aspect of their Kinders, understanding from the beginning that some will be meat goats. As many know, who have dreamed of their first Kinders, there can be quite an expense to getting your first herd or ‘starter kit’.
There is the actual cost of buying the goats, throw in the cost of importing them into your state (especially if you don’t have any in your state), finish that all off with whatever it costs you to actually get them home. Can some of us say ouch? But to most of us, actually having our Kinders is well worth the cost to get them. So having spent so much to get them and waiting ‘not’ so patiently for your first Kinder kids – the last thing you would think of is having to cull.
Honestly, for us it isn’t an easy decision to make, but it is an important one. Kinders are new to Montana. Yes, we’ve been here a while, actually for years, but the breed is still very new here. Boars and Kikos are all the rage here, so one of the worst things we could do as Kinder breeders is sell kids that will NOT help the Kinder breed become popular. There are also problems that can eventually happen because someone doesn’t cull an animal that they maybe should have.
Let’s talk about some problems that could happen, and honestly have happened because culls weren’t culled. We’ll also use our kid crop from this year to talk about culling and why some of us make that decision.
Supernumerary?
In simple terms, it means an extra teat. We, ourselves bred a doe to a buck in Washington and her doeling showed signs of supernumerary by her third week of age. What does that mean for our doe? It means we don’t breed her to that particular buck ever again! Unless she produces kids with supernumerary regardless of the buck we breed her too, she isn’t considered a cull. She has too many good qualities, so she is worth breeding again to see. However, we will let future buyers know that she does carry the supernumerary gene.
The doeling on the other hand is a cull as far as the KGBA breed standards, the doeling can’t be registered because of it. OK, so why not just sell the doeling without papers? Some breeders have. We could sell her as a pet with a guarantee that they won’t be breed. However, sooner or later the term ‘pet with a purpose’ would probably see the doeling bred. Now imagine a year or two down the road, when someone tries to register kids from that doeling. Without the papers from us, she can’t be registered. As a breeder would we be wrong to handle it that way? Not necessarily, however, how will benefit the Kinder breed? So than we have someone very angry a year or two from now not being able to register the her or her kids. Don’t think it wouldn’t happen, it honesty has happened. Now, think of the position the KGBA is in when presented with this scenario. Would you want to tell someone that they can’t register a goat without the paperwork from the original seller? So how are we handling our doeling and her sibling now that she has supernumerary? We will be culling her shortly, we just can’t afford to have her spade. Now, her sibling, the buckling…..there is no way to know if he has the gene or not. We can’t keep him for the length of time it would be required to see if he produces kids with supernumerary. We can’t risk selling him intact, because we don’t want to get a call a year down the road from a buyer asking why all their kids have extra teats!
The doeling on the other hand is a cull as far as the KGBA breed standards, the doeling can’t be registered because of it. OK, so why not just sell the doeling without papers? Some breeders have. We could sell her as a pet with a guarantee that they won’t be breed. However, sooner or later the term ‘pet with a purpose’ would probably see the doeling bred. Now imagine a year or two down the road, when someone tries to register kids from that doeling. Without the papers from us, she can’t be registered. As a breeder would we be wrong to handle it that way? Not necessarily, however, how will benefit the Kinder breed? So than we have someone very angry a year or two from now not being able to register the her or her kids. Don’t think it wouldn’t happen, it honesty has happened. Now, think of the position the KGBA is in when presented with this scenario. Would you want to tell someone that they can’t register a goat without the paperwork from the original seller? So how are we handling our doeling and her sibling now that she has supernumerary? We will be culling her shortly, we just can’t afford to have her spade. Now, her sibling, the buckling…..there is no way to know if he has the gene or not. We can’t keep him for the length of time it would be required to see if he produces kids with supernumerary. We can’t risk selling him intact, because we don’t want to get a call a year down the road from a buyer asking why all their kids have extra teats!
When is dairy too dairy?
Let’s talk about another reason to consider culling. Our Kinders are meant to be dual purpose, meaning they are bred for meat and milk. As a breeder, we want kids that represent the best of both worlds, without that we aren’t really selling Kinders are we?
Here are pictures of two doelings from this year. Sisters in fact. One is a little dairy, but has some potential based on kids we have had in the past. Her dam is our widest doe from thurl to thurl, kidding triplets without any assistance other than photo opps!
Here are pictures of two doelings from this year. Sisters in fact. One is a little dairy, but has some potential based on kids we have had in the past. Her dam is our widest doe from thurl to thurl, kidding triplets without any assistance other than photo opps!
Her dam is our biggest FF producer! Her sibling however, is very dairy. Notice how high her rump is, she also has less width thurl to thurl than her sister. There is another reason, but we’ll get to that farther on. With multiple flaws, it’s better to consider her a cull than to sell her. Remember, we want to breed goats that are Kinders, dual purpose, that means we want stout goats with nice udders and goats that produce kids that fall within the Kinder standards. Teme, the compact doeling will be retained to see how she progresses.
Udder Problems?
OK, we’ll confess, we don’t have a perfect udder one. We have actually never seen a perfect udder. We have definitely seen really nice udders and some really poor ones. We are not telling people to cull their does because they don’t have perfect udders. What we want is to always improve on what we have. There are things we like about all our girls udders and points that need to improve on.
Leyla has been bred twice. Both times giving us a single buckling. Her temperament is high strung, meaning she can get overly excitable over the littlest things. Both buckling were wethered. As a FF (first freshener) she never gave us over 5 cups of milk a day and within 3 months post kidding her milk dropped quickly. As a SF (second freshener) she’s producing what she should have as an FF. She is the type of doe that would have to be bred every year to maintain a milk supply. She is also our biggest eater, giving us less for far more than our other does do. But she has other issues besides production.
Now let’s talk about her udder. She has no rear attachments, her Medial Suspensory Ligament is not visible. There are no side attachments. The floor, or bottom of her udder, is level with her hocks, her knees. She has one teat much smaller than the other. You can visually see her udder swing like jelly as she stands there just simply grazing. Now add that to her low production and you can see why there is an issue. Her udder will not hold up to years of milking that we expect of our does, nor will she be able to ‘milk through’, milk over a long period of time. Because of all this, she is the first doe we will be culling due to her udder.
Leyla has been bred twice. Both times giving us a single buckling. Her temperament is high strung, meaning she can get overly excitable over the littlest things. Both buckling were wethered. As a FF (first freshener) she never gave us over 5 cups of milk a day and within 3 months post kidding her milk dropped quickly. As a SF (second freshener) she’s producing what she should have as an FF. She is the type of doe that would have to be bred every year to maintain a milk supply. She is also our biggest eater, giving us less for far more than our other does do. But she has other issues besides production.
Now let’s talk about her udder. She has no rear attachments, her Medial Suspensory Ligament is not visible. There are no side attachments. The floor, or bottom of her udder, is level with her hocks, her knees. She has one teat much smaller than the other. You can visually see her udder swing like jelly as she stands there just simply grazing. Now add that to her low production and you can see why there is an issue. Her udder will not hold up to years of milking that we expect of our does, nor will she be able to ‘milk through’, milk over a long period of time. Because of all this, she is the first doe we will be culling due to her udder.
There were other udder surprises for us this year and we would like to talk about whether we are culling or not and why we’ve made that decision. Our mega FF milker Davi, talk about amazing, consistent, and easy to milk! Davi is still growing, she won’t be full grown until age three in March 2016. At her peak she milked 9 ½ cups. She has leveled out at 8 cups a day. Very consistent, very easy to milk. But what we did find is a pocket in her fore udder, meaning she has a small indention at the front of her udder when it meets her belly. You can’t see any issues with her fore udder, it looks great, but you can only feel it when her udder is full. She also has the best medial suspensory ligament of all our does, though it’s a little tight causing the pocket on a full udder. This might go away as a SF or when she finishes growing and matures.
Her side attachments are perfect, width could be improved on. Her udder is up high and holding amazingly well for all she’s milking. Our thoughts? If her production stays high and consistent, her udder will last over her milking life and if the pocket doesn’t go away we really won’t mind one bit, but she is definitely worth keeping to see how she progresses. Again, we have chosen to keep one of her doelings. One other reason is that the buck we used to bred Davi isn’t a proven buck yet. This is the first year we have used him. He sired 5 doelings and 3 bucklings. The only way to see what he produces is to keep one doeling to breed. We will than see if he improves on Davi’s udder with her kids. All in all, Davi’s udder is far more a win and an improvement than not. Definitely not a reason to cull her. Her buckling has been wethered on the off chance that her pocket doesn’t improve with growth and rebreeding.
Her side attachments are perfect, width could be improved on. Her udder is up high and holding amazingly well for all she’s milking. Our thoughts? If her production stays high and consistent, her udder will last over her milking life and if the pocket doesn’t go away we really won’t mind one bit, but she is definitely worth keeping to see how she progresses. Again, we have chosen to keep one of her doelings. One other reason is that the buck we used to bred Davi isn’t a proven buck yet. This is the first year we have used him. He sired 5 doelings and 3 bucklings. The only way to see what he produces is to keep one doeling to breed. We will than see if he improves on Davi’s udder with her kids. All in all, Davi’s udder is far more a win and an improvement than not. Definitely not a reason to cull her. Her buckling has been wethered on the off chance that her pocket doesn’t improve with growth and rebreeding.
Temperaments’ or Tempers?
Ok, temperaments are important to us. We are lucky to have some very sweet natured does and bucks. This is one of our considerations when culling. Any mean goats? Any ‘Town Crier’ want to be’s? Any high maintenance (always need you) goats? Any poor health/unthrifty goats? All reasons to think about culling in our book. Yes babies cry, goats too when going to a new home, etc. However, there are goats that are just too noisy or too crazy. Noisy is why we prefer Kinders……… Neurotic goats are anything but fun, they cause stress to the owners as well as the whole herd. Screamers (Town Criers) are just as stressful, always talking and disturbing the rest of the herd. It only takes one to get the rest in an uproar. Dinner time is understandable – kid just dropped on the ground, our Naavah is the first to let us know, but do you want to hear the goats screaming EVERYTIME you go outside?
Tempers are something to avoid as well. Of course a new goat is going to upset the herd for a few weeks. Until they establish their place in the herd, there will be some disturbances and understandably so. But a goat that constantly causes problems, or is aggressive, they should be removed from the herd.
Tempers are something to avoid as well. Of course a new goat is going to upset the herd for a few weeks. Until they establish their place in the herd, there will be some disturbances and understandably so. But a goat that constantly causes problems, or is aggressive, they should be removed from the herd.
Wether or Not?
Now we come to a common situation, a wether. We all have them, some more than others. If they aren’t breed buck material – they should be wethered. But what do you do with him? Don’t know about you, but we’re tired of hearing from someone who wants a pet. Very rarely does it ever go well. Goats do make wonderful pets, but, they also live a very long time. Sooner or later they always start calling that adorable pet as a ‘hay burner’. They take work to make them useful over the long term, they take training. Read our earlier blog “Pet or Pet Peeve”……We’ve decided to not sell pets after this year, it’s too difficult to find the perfect fit. It isn’t fair to the wethers sold as pets, to be moved from place to place as their novelty wears off. This is also the reason we won’t sell a cull doe regardless of the promises not to breed them. Sooner or later, that phase ‘pet with a purpose’ rears its ugly head and you have kids that are poor quality because their dam should have been a cull.
Regardless of why you choose to cull, or even not to cull, it is something every breeder should take seriously. Instead of ‘keeping the best’ and selling the rest, as breeders we should always try to sell the best. Sooner or later culling will come up and everyone will have to make hard choices, but making the decision to cull will only benefit our Kinder breed and make sure that they stay the amazing 'dual purpose' power house we all love.
So, can you or can’t you?
Blessings
Brenda Lee
Regardless of why you choose to cull, or even not to cull, it is something every breeder should take seriously. Instead of ‘keeping the best’ and selling the rest, as breeders we should always try to sell the best. Sooner or later culling will come up and everyone will have to make hard choices, but making the decision to cull will only benefit our Kinder breed and make sure that they stay the amazing 'dual purpose' power house we all love.
So, can you or can’t you?
Blessings
Brenda Lee
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